Mark Baddeley over at the
Sola Panel has written
this piece on “complementarianism and egalitarianism.”
“Complementarianism” is the theological belief that men and women have different roles, and that a woman’s role is subordinate but equal to the role of men, and that therefore women cannot have authority over men in church, and that therefore, women can only be ordained to roles such as running Sunday School, “Ladies’” ministry, serving food to men and cleaning up after them - but not to pastoral ministry.
“Egalitarianism” is the belief that men and women can both be called to any role.
This clean choice of two clean options (C-ism vs. E-ism) is the brain child of John Piper and Wayne Grudem, and is robustly defended by conservative groups such as the Sydney Diocese of the Anglican Church.
Baddeley’s logic (and I’m attempting to be objective here, but should admit from the start that I do not feel very objective) is classical, paranoid 'slippery slope' rhetoric. Namely, he argues that it is important to deny ordination to women, because if we start ordaining women, then logically, we would have to start approving homosexuality too. (Although to be fair, Baddeley talks about “promoting” homosexuality, and I am curious about what exactly that entails… but I think he really means approving not promoting).
Slippery slope arguments have this structure: 'Give a n*gger an inch and he’ll take a mile.' Their logic functions as follows: ‘if you let them free from cotton picking, next they will want to vote. If you let them vote, they will want to ride on the bus next to us. If you let them ride on the bus, they will want jobs with a living wage. Once they have a wage, they will want to move into our neighbourhoods, teach in our schools and marry our daughters.’
A similarly terrifying outcome of egalitarianism, based on the same logic is this: if you give human rights to women, then not only will gay people want them too, but EVERYONE will! Gays will want marriage; Palestinians and Afghanis will want to live without fear; political prisoners in Guantanamo Bay will want to not be tortured; the third world will demand clean water and food. Chaos liberally ensues!
In other words, complementarianism, as much as it seems to be backed up by the genius ability of male theologians to take bible verses out of context, is really based on their desire to secure their own material comfort - not just in their Christian homes, but globally. If we let women be ordained, it’s not simply their male privileges of hot dinners and clean laundry that are threatened… their and our ability to exploit marginalised people everywhere would be at stake.
I'm glad that you have admitted to not feeling very objective about it.
ReplyDelete"If we let women be ordained" - I'm a women, and a Sydney Anglican, and currently a candidate for ordination in this diocese - a diocese that ordains more women than any other diocese in this country. and I'll be pleased to join them in just over a year.
"women can only be ordained to roles such as running Sunday School, “Ladies’” ministry, serving food to men and cleaning up after them - but not to pastoral ministry. " - frankly this seems like a bit of a caricature of the position of complementarians. or a misunderstanding. in any case, sunday school and 'ladies' ministry ARE pastoral ministries which are no less important than any other. and the only serving food and cleaning up I do is as part of the team who provide supper for night church. I serve both men and women, and the team who serve includes both men and women.
for all your rhetoric and slagging you haven't engaged in any exegesis - and can I suggest that might a first step in being objective.
Hi, your post comes across a bit one-sided and caricature-ish UNTIL one reads the post from Baddeley. Then, your response seems entirely just.
ReplyDeleteI must say, though, that for every devotee of slippery slope arguments, there seems to be an activist in favour of making their worst dreams come true.
I was kind of bemused that Baddeley was standing on a "sola scriptura" line but failed to make a single biblical argument. And I sniggered aloud at his "secret meeting of agitators for homosexuality". What bothered me most, though, was a total lack of grace in the argument. We neglect that at our peril, whatever view we take.
Katierae, the topic of discussion which was raised in the article I'm responding to is ordination to the *priesthood* (in Anglican terminology... or in my terminology, 'ordained pastoral ministry'). Nobody is under the impression that women can't be 'ordained' to any task, or that women can't undertake some kinds of "pastoral care".
ReplyDeleteSecondly, I think we've reached saturation point with exegesis on this topic. A few verses have been analysed to the point where all that remains is speculation. Is our 'Paul' talking about the divine order of creation, or is he responding to a specific group of gnosticizing women in Ephesus... it is impossible to prove, so we make exegetical choices.
What I have written above is about the reasons for the choices we make, not the minutiae we use to back up those choices. Since we are making recommendations for each other, may I suggest some reflection on the motivations behind the exegesis could be a good step for you? :)
so if the male theologians exegesis is "based on their desire to secure their own material comfort ", what is your theory about the motivations of women who hold a complementarian view?
ReplyDeleteWell, one suggestion is that it is a similar motivation to the reason why many African-Americans sided with and fought for slavery in the American civil war, and why victims of child abuse defend/protect their abusers, and assume they are at fault. People very quickly become addicted to their own oppression, oppression is comfortable, and their oppressors are very talented encouraging them to accept their lot with emotional and social rewards. (Happy marriage, compliments, status etc.)
ReplyDeleteBut I am in no position to tell you how you think! You are an adult, and obviously an intelligent one. There are two valid ways of interpreting the text and you have made a choice to believe one in particular... and in a way that seems to demean you, and your whole gender. Why is that? (and for the sake of the exercise, try to describe your motivation for accepting the exegesis, without reciting the exegetical arguments themselves)
its really quite simple - I go with the exegesis that makes sense to me. I don't believe that it demeans me or my gender. the men I work with, I believe, think very highly of me, and I have never felt anything less than valued and respected by them.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the egalitarians I have had contact with usually assume I'm too brow-beaten by men to be able to intelligibly understand the Bible. That's demeaning.
I grew up in an egalitarian church (not an Anglican church). It was about 6 years ago that I started attending an Anglican church and investigating the complementarian view. exegetically and experientially its makes sense to me.
Yeah, I agree that it's demeaning when male egalitarians think complementarian women are not intelligent!!
ReplyDeleteBut I want to encourage you to think even more critically. Things don't "just make sense" for no reason. When the balance of evidence is as evenly distributed as it is in this case - people come to conclusions for REASONS. I'm really interested in this word you use "experientially." I think the experiences you are referring to would be enlightening reading.
And if I can get away with being a little cheeky, I think that you are are doing a great job of teaching a man about the Bible right now! Your experiences, that you describe above, are truly edifying for me (and those paternalistic male egalitarians) to hear.
haha - a little cheekiness is always good
ReplyDeleteright now i'm at the tail end of a long day, but i'll try and make some time tomorrow to articulate what I mean by 'experientially'.
I certainly agree that things don't just make sense for no reason, but I'm not sure that dissecting motive is enough in and of itself (although Im sure you don't think that either) given that our motives are so often sinful. in all honesty, sometimes I'd like to be an egalitarian - I LOVE preaching! and there are times when I genuinely wish I believed that the Bible gives me free reign to do what I want. but exegetically - I can't get there. and as someone who believes in the authority of scripture, I have to let my exegesis guide the way I live.
I think the whole point of my original blog post is to point out the sinful motives behind exegesis.
ReplyDeleteBut if it's sin you're worried about, then you should be all the more concerned about oppressive structures in society - like patriarchy. That's the kind of sin the prophets and Jesus preached against. Not women desiring to preach! Nobody in scripture ever denounced that as sin.
I wholeheartedly applaud this discussion.
ReplyDeleteKatierae, I applaud you for submitting to the interpretation of the Bible that your reasoning faculties force you to take, whilst keeping in mind that you are also an emotional / pyschological creature and not just a comprehension machine.
Karl, I admire how you have approached this debate given your wholehearted support to one side.
And you're right Andrew, if we aren't gracious to each other, it will degenerate into a tragic war before we can say Amen :(
Everyone needs to submit to the Word of God and let the Spirit talk to his/her heart. We certainly need the Spirit's help to apply 1 Timothy 2 without hurting each other.
Iago - I've coped a lot of insults from people for submitting to my understanding of the Bible, but never been applauded for it (by someone who disagrees with me) so I thank you.
ReplyDeleteKarl - you say 'the whole point of my original blog post is to point out the sinful motives behind exegesis'. but lets be honest here - your post was about the sinful motives you assume are behind complementarian exegesis. I'd be interested to also hear what you think are the possible sinful motives behind an egalitarian exegesis.
That's a loaded question... why would you assume the motives are sinful?
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean to hide the fact that I'm talking about the sinful motives behind *oppressive* exegesis... in fact I thought I had made that pretty obvious from the outset.
But I am also operating from the assumption that all exegesis has a "material basis" (i.e. something not founded in pure reason or clear evidence).
Maybe I should blog on the material basis of egalitarianism soon... but it won't be as fun without a "sola panel" article to bounce off :P
"why would you assume the motives are sinful?" probably for the same reason you have assumed sinful motives of complementarians. we both think we're right and the other side is wrong.
ReplyDeleteand this is probably as far as we can take this discussion because I won't to clearly say that I don't believe complementarian exegesis is oppressive. and now we run into talking exegesis which you specifically didn't want to do.
No problemo my friend, it was nice to chat with you :)
ReplyDeletesame :)
ReplyDeleteon a completely different note - I'm pretty sure we went to high school together. small world huh?!
Sure is!
ReplyDeleteNice post and nice image! I found you while googling for an image for my blogpost this morning about complementarianism. I'm gonna link this article. Love how you unpacked it here. I'm adding you to my google reader!
ReplyDeleteBlessings!